On Thursday, Parliament approved a national pact to protect Catalan schools against “systematic attacks by the State”. It is a position that fits with the warning that Pere Aragonès (Pineda de Mar, 1982) launched shortly after the municipal elections, in the face of the possibility of the PP and Vox getting the central Government. The president is mainly concerned about issues in the field of education, at the same time that he addresses the current political situation. With one outstanding fact: he assures that neither the lack of new budgets nor the poor results of ERC in the general elections will advance the elections.
What will the Government’s relations with Moncloa be like if the PP and Vox rule from July 23?
Let me say that the relationship with the PSOE Government and Unides Podemos has not been easy. We have an important list of non-compliances. Whatever happens in the elections, we will have to defend Catalonia and everything it represents: the welfare state, the Catalan language and culture, the institutions, and also the political future of this country. It will be necessary to strengthen Catalonia’s defense lines. The PP and Vox are warning us. They say that Catalonia will be the enemy to beat.
You assumed two days after the municipal elections that there would be a PP-Vox government. Is it just a possibility now?
The one who took it for granted was Pedro Sánchez, who is calling elections to try to turn the situation around. It’s a possibility. We must be prepared for all circumstances. The best defense that can be made of Catalonia on July 23 is from independence, and from pro-independence and progressive positions.
Gabriel Rufián talks about a great PP-PSOE coalition. Do you believe it?
It is not disposable. Seven years ago, Rajoy was sworn in as president of the Spanish Government with the PSOE abstaining.
But it was not to form a PP-PSOE government.
There are many ways to govern and to establish grand coalitions: it can be de facto, with external support, or a grand coalition that shares government. But the PSOE cannot ask to be voted to defend Catalonia against the extreme right, because between Madrid and Catalonia they always end up choosing the interests of the State.
If you want to defend Catalonia, shouldn’t you also count on the commons and the PSC?
Only with a great result for independence, and especially for ERC, will we have the guarantee that defense is a reality. In matters of school, housing or anti-repressive measures, Sánchez has taken decisions thanks to the influence and pressure of republican independence. Because he presented himself with another speech and after a failed investiture that he wanted to do arm in arm with Albert Rivera; he said that the sentences of political prisoners should be served in full, and he appeared in a campaign full of Spanish flags. Then it changed. And not by divine grace, but thanks to negotiation and ERC’s ability to make it change.
On housing issues, Unides Podemos was much more influential.
The outline of the main innovation, which is the limit on the price of rent, is copied from the law we made in Catalonia and which the PSOE brought to the Constitutional Court.
I’m back Don’t you think that to “defend Catalonia” we should incorporate sectors beyond independence?
Obviously. The great strength we have in Catalonia to defend the language, the school model, self-government, the right to decide are the great consensuses. We did this in response to the TSJC ruling on 25% Spanish in schools.
Do you foresee disobedience for matters such as language?
What I foresee is victory.
Do you think that there is a part of independence that expects the PP and Vox to win, for the sake of when the worst is the best?
I think that when worse, worse. Nor does it mean that the current Spanish Government can get away with an approval. But the PP and Vox represent a much greater degree of hostility than with Sánchez.
ERC asks to raise the conditions to invest Sánchez. Can you specify them?
It remains to be seen, if the case arises, how far Sánchez is prepared to take with respect to the postulates of the PP and Vox. There must be the will to move forward in the resolution of the political conflict and in anti-repressive measures and to delve deeper into a solution that only goes through a referendum.
ERC and Junts have made several pacts with the PSC after the municipal elections. Is the relationship with the socialists normalized?
Regarding the future of the country, we have a position totally opposite to that of the PSC. I defend the independence of Catalonia, a referendum, and the PSC denies this democratic possibility. Agreements have been reached in other areas. But as administrations grow in importance, the national factor weighs more.
In the deputations of Lleida and Tarragona ERC has agreed with the PSC.
In any case, it has been to ensure that there are pro-independence presidencies. And in most of the mayoralties where Esquerra has reached agreements with the PSC, it is the PSC that has supported ERC.
Wednesday seemed to be approaching Junts. Does it occur to you to reinstate JxCat in the Government?
We are at a time when it is a priority to reach agreements that resemble those we had at the beginning of the legislature. I aspire that Junts is part of the stability of this Government and we must work with mechanisms that are most logical to go through parliamentary stability. From here, find formulas of understanding because after the next parliamentary elections we will have to understand each other again.
If it doesn’t work out, will the 2024 budget be negotiated with the PSC?
Catalonia must have maximum stability and we will work with whoever is willing to guarantee it. Better if it is with those with whom we share points, especially with regard to the national horizon of Catalonia. What is important is that the agreements come. My goal is that in the next budgets we can have Junts’ support. It would be irresponsible if, at a time of high complexity, we were to focus on seeing who leaves the ship first.
But it would also be an exercise in responsibility to call elections if there are no new budgets.
It is a scenario that we do not foresee. We are convinced that there will be agreements that will guarantee that there is sufficient stability for important decisions.
I insist, would the elections go ahead if you don’t have a new budget?
Don’t insist on it. There will be no electoral advance.
Not even after July 23 if ERC suffers a decline again?
In no case will I subordinate the Catalan legislature to Congress. The presidents who preceded me did not, because they had the institutional sense that corresponds to a president of the Generalitat. I won’t either now. When Jordi Pujol, when his political formation had far behind results in a general election of the Socialist Party, he did not advance the elections. Junts didn’t do it when ERC overtook him. In any scenario, it doesn’t make any sense. If, in addition, there is a context of a hostile government in Madrid of the PP and Vox, or of the PP with the support of the PSOE, [we are not going to] dedicate ourselves to dismantling the defense of Catalonia and putting ourselves in an electoral scenario and uncertain subsequent government formation.
He won’t do a Pedro Sánchez, then…
I tend to be pretty predictable. It is a value at a time when Catalonia needs stability and for the legislatures to be completed.
In the municipal elections ERC lost 300,000 votes. Because?
It’s a bad result. We should analyze the exceptional result of 2019 to better understand that of 2023. In 2019 there was a very high electoral mobilization, when we had imprisoned leaders.
Do you attribute the bad results to the negotiation with the PSOE or to the management of the Government?
Getting into percentages here would be an unwise venture. The results do not obey a single cause. In 2019, many positive elements came together, which ended up crystallizing in extraordinarily good results, the best we have had in history. Now we have the second best.
Was there no influence that the focus, at the dialogue table, was on undoing the judicial consequences of the events of 2017 and there was no progress in the objective of the referendum?
When we started the negotiation process we explained that it had two phases. A first that was essential: reversing the effects of repression. There were pardons, we repealed sedition and today a Spanish government cannot threaten us with sedition if we decide to move towards independence. The second phase is the one that must be faced from now on, which is the substantive resolution of the conflict. That is why I have proposed a clarity agreement. This phase must address the core of the problem and will be much more difficult.
Let’s talk about the management of the Government. A recent report says that Catalonia is moving away from the renewable energy targets. How can it be recovered?
We are recovering. Since November 2021 we have gone from 9 megawatts of authorized power to more than 1,500, and in July we will end up with 1,600 megawatts. We have made a very big leap, but we must continue.
But the procedures take too long…
We will deepen the simplification of procedures. We are allocating 59 million euros to public energy to convert all the roofs of the Generalitat’s public buildings into photovoltaic energy production plants. There has been a turning point. And we have another 5,000 megawatts in the processing process.
They said no to the expansion of El Prat airport proposed by the PSOE Government. But we still don’t know what the Generalitat’s project is for the airport.
We set ourselves the goal of increasing intercontinental connections. It is not an expansion to increase the number of tourists, which is what Núnez Feijóo said in Barcelona. The quantity should not be increased, but the value. We have an agreement as a result of the 2023 budgets by which it is said that there will be a joint State-Generalitat commission, which I trust will be launched in September. But a Barcelona airport managed from Madrid by Aena will always benefit Madrid.
But when will the Generalitat present its proposal?
When it is feasible to carry out the negotiation with the State.
Catalonia devotes 3.8% of GDP to Education, below the Spanish average. When will we be able to reach the 6% that was requested through an ILP in Parliament?
We cannot deceive the public. We will only be able to allocate the resources needed by our country’s public services in education or health when we can fully dispose of them. And that will be when we are an independent State. With limited autonomy and fiscal plunder that affects 8% of the wealth that is produced in Catalonia each year, to think that it is possible to allocate all resources to it is to be out of touch with reality.
But Catalonia is one of the autonomous communities with the least investment, according to GDP.
We have gone from an Education budget that was just over 5,000 million euros to 6,900 million in 2023. I don’t want them to look at the weight of public spending on GDP if we don’t look at the weight of income of the Generalitat on GDP. These figures are determined by what the State sends us. Therefore, the fiscal deficit impacts us every day and we have fewer resources than we should.
So what can be improved in the field of Education?
We have lowered the ratios in I3 and I4 with a maximum of 20 students per teacher, we have implemented free education in I2, we have deployed the inclusive school or the advancement of the school year. We have to consolidate it. Now we need a new stage with councilor Anna Simó that must be characterized by the trust of the entire educational community. The main challenge is how we reduce school dropout…
It is 17%, twice as much as in the EU…
That is why we are strengthening professional training. In fact, of the 1,500 education professionals that we approved to join this Tuesday, half are destined to improve the offer of professional training.
Is it a failure of the Catalan school model that the reading comprehension of Catalan students has dropped to the point where it is only above Ceuta and Melilla?
It would be a misdiagnosis. Catalan society has faced very important changes in recent years. Demographic changes, which represent a very big challenge due to the incorporation of many citizens who have arrived in our country. In the first decade of this century, a million people arrived. A challenge in terms of incorporation, language learning, in the educational field.
How are the promised aids for the municipalities to carry out works to take advantage of the water in times of drought?
We are looking for smaller municipalities, which have less investment capacity, to be able to have support that in some cases will reach 100% of the works. As the municipalities increase in population volume and have more investment capacity, the percentage will reach 60-70%. It is the responsibility of the councils, but the Government is there to help.
