In the days before the demonstration next Sunday in Barcelona against the amnesty and self-determination, Elda Mata (Barcelona, ??1953) receives La Vanguardia at the headquarters of Societat Civil Catalana, the civic-cultural association that she has presided over for just over one year, to talk about the reasons for the call, which will tour Barcelona behind a bilingual banner with the motto “Not in my name.”
Why is a demonstration against amnesty and self-determination necessary?
Because, apart from legitimate political strategies, we see that the last 45 years of democracy are going to waste due to continuous concessions to satisfy a nationalism that is supremacist and exclusive. Transfers that first went through pardons, with which it seemed to us that what was convenient for what was called pacifying Catalonia was exceeded, but which we have seen did not serve to appease the constant demands of nationalism, but rather have brought us closer to a another step to the impunity that is now sought with the amnesty.
Wouldn’t it help reconciliation, as its proponents defend?
An amnesty is an absolutely exceptional measure after a war or a dictatorship, but we are in a state of social and democratic law and it is evident that the circumstances do not exist. The judiciary resolved the situation of people who had violated the laws in 2017.
Is it not possible to turn the page?
No. What an amnesty says is that these crimes did not exist and that further deepens the feeling of impunity of those who violate the laws and the orphanhood and helplessness of all those constitutionalists who believe in the rule of law and who know that outside In that framework there can be nothing but instability and decadence, which is what is happening in Catalonia.
Neither forgetting nor forgiveness…
The effect of the amnesty is that there was no crime and that those convicted were unjustly imprisoned. It is like saying that that trial with all the guarantees should not have taken place and that it has been prevaricated. That makes the State repressive and undemocratic. And that makes the illegal referendum neither a crime nor the laws that preceded it. And that leaves us one step away from the Parliament being able to proclaim independence and secession from Spain. You cannot reward people who clearly committed crimes, also defrauding taxpayers’ money as we have denounced in the Court of Auditors.
Does amnesty automatically lead to self-determination?
Yes, you can take. A whole series of consequences fall from the amnesty that undermine the rule of law and deepen a difference between certain politicians and the rest of the citizens. At this time, carrying out an amnesty would be to please minorities such as the Catalan nationalists, whose strength is decreasing in Catalonia. However, at the time of lowest electoral incidence of nationalism they have the greatest role in the governability of Spain. Carles Puigdemont fled to avoid facing justice and was taking money from wherever he could for his Consell de la República and very forgotten about the European Union. He does not deserve that prominence as a fugitive from the State and justice, which is for the sole condition that he can favor a parliamentary majority for a certain party. The good of the Spanish people and Spanish democracy must be far above partisan interests.
But the Socialist Party has already assured that self-determination will not be negotiated…
Nobody was in favor of amnesty or self-determination just a few months ago. And at this moment it seems that now it is about amnesty, but not about self-determination. Through the same channel, the same politicians from now on could say that self-determination is yes. It would be the next step. We want to put black on white and in the street that neither one thing nor the other: neither amnesty nor self-determination are constitutional. The sovereignty of the Spanish cannot be cut into pieces.
What is the political solution that SCC proposes as an alternative?
We have always asked that the main government parties in Spain agree to reach a consensus on fundamental State issues and resolve the article of the Constitution related to territoriality. Without the essential loyalty of the two majority parties, which obtained 70% of the votes of Spaniards in July, we will always be in the hands of nationalism and extremes and our democracy will be much weaker. Furthermore, it cannot be dejudicialized, as some say, because in a rule of law, criminal acts have to go through the courts as a last resort when politics transcends political agreements and enters legal territory.
But in Catalonia that correlation of forces is different. Isn’t dialogue with nationalism possible?
First we have to take into account that they are disloyal and not neutral institutions. We have asked many times for a meeting with the president of the Generalitat and he has delayed us. He has spoken about 1-O as if it were a legal and legitimate event. He fills their mouths speaking on behalf of Catalonia and all Catalans. We constitutionalists are the majority, but due to the electoral law in the Parliament that is not reflected. There has not been this dialogue in 45 years, but rather transfers in exchange for votes in Congress to be able to govern one or the other. These transfers have not led us to a better Catalonia, but to a lack of opportunities, to the departure of companies, due to a lack of legal stability and talent, due to the impositions and linguistic barriers that make Catalonia a kingdom of taifas that expels to those who do not agree with the nationalist regime.
And if dialogue is not the way, what is the solution?
Possibly it involves removing the focus from Catalonia as if it were not part of Spain. It is said that this is a problem for the Catalans, but no, the problem involves all of Spain. The amnesty is a torpedo in the waterline of democracy that affects all of Spain. What happens in Catalonia happens throughout Spain. The solution for Catalonia should not be limited to a table, to an agreement with Catalonia. Spain has 17 autonomous communities. We have to think globally: Catalonia is neither better nor worse than other autonomies. There is no need to create comparative grievances. The Constitution of ’78 gave way to an exemplary transition and that is where we should be: weaving with the threads of concord and loyalty of that time.
How is that achieved within Catalonia, where society is divided more or less in half?
If the majority parties that have had responsibility for government really wanted to put an end to the difficulties that exist in the autonomies with the most power of nationalism, I have no doubt that they would be capable of doing so: the first thing would be to end the transfers, which from the first moment have undermined the rights and freedoms of Catalans as Spaniards that we are. We feel orphaned because we do not have the same rights as the rest of the Spaniards.
What rights are those that have been violated?
There have been concessions in education, in language, in the matters in which nationalism has been deploying its very well-structured and well-thought-out roadmap for many years. The State has never had the same roadmap to consolidate what Spain is and the rights of all Spaniards as clearly. In the province of Girona, where I live, for example, and where the anonymity of the city does not protect the citizen as much, it is evident that non-independence supporters do not have the same rights as others: I cannot put the Spanish flag on my house, because they would put a match on it. Or I have been caught for speaking in Spanish, in a private conversation, on the street. The Catalan administration has all the documentation in Catalan and they do not give it to you in Spanish. It also happens in healthcare. It is not an issue of language, but rather a lack of rights for a person who, when they go to the doctor, is also very vulnerable. 80% of city councils do not display the symbols of the State with total impunity. In a town where nationalism is very strong, it is known who goes and who does not go to a demonstration like the one on Sunday. There is civil death. There is signaling at school and at work.
Let’s go to the demonstration on Sunday, does the presence of Vox bother you?
It doesn’t worry us. SCC is a civic-cultural association that calls for a demonstration to give citizens a voice. We understand and are supporters of plurality. We have not called the political parties. We would not understand that there were symbols of any party, neither one nor the other.
But being so critical of nationalism, are you concerned that a nationalist party, in this case Spanish like Vox, could capitalize on the demonstration?
We are not afraid. I have no idea who there will be and who there won’t be. Each one is responsible for his actions. We have asked all parties to show maximum respect for the call and we have no reason to think that the wishes of those we have called will not be respected.
And would you have liked the Socialist Party to join as in 2017?
It’s not that we like it or not. We have not asked them to join the parties, neither the Socialist Party nor anyone else. I have no doubt that there will be many socialists and we know that many others would have wanted to come, as they have told us privately, but who in certain circumstances prefer not to express their ideas in a demonstration. We respect everyone’s right to demonstrate in one way or another.
What role are political parties going to have in the contribution of protesters? Are they chartering buses?
The buses are organized by constitutionalist entities of various kinds in different parts of Spain. As far as I know, the parties are not organizing buses, but I have no dialogue with them. What I do know is that individuals and groups of friends will travel. I have no idea what the parties are doing.
What expectations do you have? Would they be satisfied with matching the independence call of the last Diada?
We are satisfied with fulfilling our responsibility, which is to call a demonstration. Let’s hope that many people come, that they mobilize despite the fact that mobilization has been difficult for a number of years because of the problems that exist, because of the hopelessness of seeing that we are going to get worse after the pardons and the fires of 2019. It seems that this It has no end and people are demobilized. It costs an enormous sacrifice to maintain principles and values. The organizers are volunteers, committed citizens, none of us make a living from this. We are civil entities with the aim of making a better Spain. If we were settled in comfort and indifference, we would not have called for a demonstration, and let the sun rise over Antequera. But we have done it out of responsibility. Parties have other objectives, the first of all to govern, and many times it is to govern above all else. And in that, citizens in a consolidated democracy have to come out and say no in my name.
