Pedro Sánchez is convinced that he will overcome the difficulties of governing depending on numerous parliamentary partners and will continue four more years in Moncloa. He believes that Junts will adapt to its new role and, despite criticism of the amnesty, he is sure that, in the long run, the social and political majority will see its beneficial effects. In the face of so much political noise, he prescribes “temperance.”
The beginning of the legislature is marked by the Government’s difficulties in approving three decree laws and now the Amnesty law. It seems that they are prisoners of their partners, who have them in their hands. Is it a bad omen?
What is relevant is that this Government has a clear project with three objectives: job creation, expansion of rights and coexistence. When I agree with other parliamentary formations, I ask myself if they align with those three objectives. Regarding coexistence, the parties are not the ones who legitimize or not legitimize other political actors, citizens do it with their vote. What we are seeing in the last five years is an attempt by the right to delegitimize political actors with whom they are incapable of reaching agreements. But the effort to normalize the situation in Catalonia makes our democracy stronger by incorporating Junts or ERC to contribute constructively to the governability of the country. Total normalization in Catalonia is not going to happen overnight, but my will for it is total.
They are processing an Amnesty law without the independence movement having made an act of contrition or a clear recognition of the errors of 2017. Will the citizens understand it?
When the beneficial effects of the amnesty are seen, many of the politicians who are demonstrating in the streets of Spain today will make good the saying “if I have seen you, I don’t remember.” After the pardons, I am convinced that the pardons and decisions to overcome the judicial responsibilities of those years will be positive for coexistence in Spain. Looking at the covers of your newspaper from six years ago, this same week, one included an IMF report that said that growth expectations in our country were lowered as a result of the process. Today we talk about growth, with the lowest unemployment rate since 2017, and coexistence. We all have to learn from what happened in 2017 and I am convinced that the independence movement has done so.
The independence movement continues to call for a self-determination referendum. You were against the amnesty, but you have changed your mind. Can it also change in relation to the referendum?
I have changed my position on the amnesty, but the situation has evolved, because there has been a clear commitment to coexistence. The pardons, the reform of the Penal Code and the amnesty are steps in a coherent line. We are going to assume everything that contributes to coexistence. But anything that raises binary questions about whether you are Catalan or Spanish breaks coexistence and is contrary to our line of action.
Therefore, do you promise that there will be no self-determination referendum?
We are not in that proposal, but in a completely different one. Being Catalan in Europe, in a process of sharing sovereignty, in competition with superpowers, can be best expressed in an autonomous Spain. We have to go towards greater integration while respecting territorial diversity. We see how investment in Catalonia increases, like that of AstraZeneca, because there is stability. Other formulas would only bring pain and economic setback.
Perhaps there is more tranquility in Catalonia, but the political climate in the rest of Spain is very heated by the Amnesty law.
Not only because of the amnesty, but since the 2018 motion of censure. The right tries to delegitimize what it does not control. They instrumentalize all institutions. They use the autonomous governments to go against the Government of Spain. The Senate against Congress. They block and kidnap the General Council of the Judiciary. They question the Constitutional Court. But in the face of noise and insult, I vindicate the policy of temperance.
The wording of the Amnesty law seems to be changing as the rulings of Judge Manuel García-Castellón appear, who this week has been moving to exclude Carles Puigdemont. Do you think, like your vice president Teresa Ribera, that this judge is acting as a counterbalance to the Government?
I have always been a president deeply respectful of the separation of powers. Therefore, it is not my responsibility to evaluate investigations sub iudice. In political terms, I will remember that José María Aznar pardoned 16 members of Terra Lliure, sentenced as terrorists. Unfortunately, we Spaniards know what terrorism is and what is not. It is true that the independence movement used reprehensible strategies, but I believe that this is not terrorism.
Perhaps the way the law is being drafted it seems that there is some terrorism eligible for amnesty and another not…
No, what there is is a debate about what is terrorism and what is not. And Spanish democracy, fortunately, defeated terrorism 13 years ago. This has nothing to do with an Amnesty law that aims to overcome the judicial consequences of an error committed by those who governed the Generalitat and the Government of Spain. You have published information about the Catalunya operation. Well, we have changed the dirty war in the hands of Mariano Rajoy for clean politics. And we have to wonder about the thunderous silences of the PP, which neither stands aside nor condemns these actions or even some of its leaders endorse the spurious use, for private purposes, of the security forces and bodies. For me, Alberto Núñez Feijóo’s silence means two things: first, the lack of autonomy of the leader of the PP, who is subject to the interests of others. And second, if they were in government, they would do it again.
We are talking about cases of police illegalities, but do you think that in Spain there are cases of judicial lawfare?
The most important judicial lawfare is the one that the PP is perpetrating with the blockade of the Judiciary for five years.
But the fact that the Catalunya operation has not been thoroughly investigated by any judicial body, what is your opinion?
I insist, I am not going to comment on anything regarding the investigations and the files or not files of judicial cases. Yes, I have seen that the Attorney General’s Office, based on new information that you have revealed, has initiated proceedings. We must wait and respect the actions of judges and prosecutors. We are extraordinarily respectful of the work of the judiciary.
Do you think that Pere Aragonès could lead the CDRs, as Judge García-Castellón maintains?
It’s not my place to answer that. We have been transparent, we have given the information that the judge has requested from us and that was also requested by the current president of the Generalitat. The process, as I told the president, was totally guaranteed. The CNI asked the Supreme Court for permission to intervene on certain devices and that information is now sent to the judge. I was unaware of these investigations and that intervention, as it should be in a healthy and strong democracy like the Spanish one.
Despite his insistence on respecting the judiciary, he feels attacked by the Government. What do you think about the General Council of the Judiciary ruling against the Amnesty law when it has not yet been approved? Will they be able to redirect the relationship with the judiciary?
We have always worked to have the best relationships. I believe that the judiciary is a victim of the kidnapping of the CGPJ by the PP, which sends the message to the judiciary and society that it controls the judicial power and the non-recognition of the legitimacy emanating from the polls in 2019 and 2023. Let’s hope that with the good offices of the European Commission we reach an agreement.
The way in which the Catalan independence movement expresses itself is not kind. Do you think that some of your statements could be presented in a different way to avoid increasing unrest in many layers of Spanish society?
There is a new political actor, like ERC or EH Bildu before, do not forget the “let Txapote vote for you”, which is Junts, with whom we must develop a culture of dialogue that will require time of dedication and temperance. It is great news for Spain that all the political actors are inside. That means we have a more complete and legitimate democracy. From there, each one can defend the positions they want. If you ask me if I would like more emphasis and tone to be placed on constructiveness rather than on differences, without a doubt. But I can only defend my Government’s strategy, which is temperance.
Also in his party there are dissenting voices such as that of the president of Castilla-La Mancha, Emiliano García-Page.
I have imposed on myself as a senior leader of the socialist party that I am not going to weaken any political project that bears the acronym of the PSOE. And I have always wanted any issue that affects the party to be resolved in the internal bodies.
And now the budget negotiation comes, aren’t you afraid that Junts will repeat the same strategy and at the last minute pull out a transfer such as immigration or something similar?
We have to cultivate the culture of negotiation, which is not only complex with Junts, but also because of the relationship between that force and ERC. What is relevant for me is that the agreements are consistent with my political project, and we have the means to move the budgets forward: parliamentary support and resources.
Was what the PSOE signed with Junts an investiture or legislative agreement?
What we have agreed, and it is written, is to move forward to overcome the crisis that arose from the Statute ruling, appealed by the PP, although it was later copied in other communities, which now have a more established self-government than Catalonia. That is at the origin of the greatest territorial conflict in our democracy. There is a large majority of Catalan society, whether pro-independence or not, that wants the pro-independence forces to support the governability of Spain. This is something that the Catalan independence movement must also take into account when negotiating laws as important as budgets.
The politics of gestures are important. You have assured that you will not meet with Puigdemont until the amnesty is approved. Who will you see first, Puigdemont or Junqueras?
The important thing is that the Amnesty law is a transcendent step in Spanish democracy that demonstrates, in my opinion, the principles and values ??of our Constitution, which are to overcome, from politics, political crises such as this one. When it is approved, in an act consistent and coherent with this transcendent step that democracy takes, I will meet with both. And not once, but more. The effort will be worth it for Catalan and Spanish society.
If you are so clear, why did you previously consider that the amnesty would not contribute to coexistence?
I admit that before the pardons I did have doubts about their effects. And the independence movement, with his statements, did not contribute to appeasing them. But the effect of the pardons has been beneficial. And the Amnesty law will have them. I am very aware of the visit I made in those fateful months of 2019 to a hospital in Barcelona where a national police officer was injured in the demonstrations. And when I left the room where I met with his family, I found many health professionals who were very angry because they did not understand that political representatives were put in jail. For me, that moment was very impactful and very clarifying of what I should do in the following years. Not even the PP criticizes my pardons anymore. The paradox is that one of those responsible for the crisis by appealing to the Statute or collecting signatures against it, such as the PP, aspires for the socialist party to fix its mess and also pay for it. That is anything but an exercise in patriotism. I am convinced that if he did not need Vox to be able to govern, Feijóo would be approving the amnesty today.
Can Catalonia have unique financing, as the independentists ask?
The scheme is that of multilateralism, solidarity, fiscal responsibility and institutional loyalty. Many regional governments of the PP are lowering taxes on high incomes while asking the State for money, which is hypocrisy and enormous institutional disloyalty.
The PP wants to take the spying on its mobile phone to the Pegasus investigation commission. Do you know anything else about that episode?
A few months ago the judge announced the file due to lack of information. It was serious, but I think that the PP makes a spurious use trying to link even my wife with mafia and drug trafficking networks from Morocco. In short, all that fachosphere that does is polarize, insult, generate distrust with a clear purpose. The right has a shipwreck of ideas. They are parasitized by the extreme right. How can they overthrow a legitimate government of two leftist parties? Creating noise to demobilize the electorate and provoke political disaffection among voters. The right’s strategy is clear. Mr. Feijóo has even said that the Constitution has disappeared. The same week that we approved the reform of article 49. Anything goes. It is a project of destruction that seeks to cover up its lack of ideas and demobilize the progressive electorate with noise. We must respond to that with temperance.
After your meeting in Davos, has your relationship with businessmen improved?
I have always had an extraordinary relationship with businessmen. The benefits that large companies have in our country are formidable and I am happy about it. In Davos I asked for a commitment from companies to consolidate democracies with social cohesion. A company cannot succeed in a society that fails. What does that mean? Well, they have to contribute more to the common cause, which is the welfare state, with the tax on banks, with the tax on large fortunes, ensuring that the effective rate of corporate tax is not lower than that of a self-employed person or a small and medium-sized businessman, because that is fiscal justice. I also believe that we have to open debates that citizens are asking for, such as the reduction of working hours, which falls squarely into one of the debts we have with our society, which is conciliation. We can do it now that we are increasingly digitalized, with artificial intelligence. We can gain productivity, competitiveness and social cohesion.
Why do you not want Spain to participate in the Red Sea military operation?
It’s not that we don’t want to participate. We already participate in the Atalanta mission, in which there are countries that are not there. Others will go to the Red Sea operation and we will not participate. But we have more than 3,000 military personnel deployed in NATO, EU and UN missions. And more than half in the Middle East. Our approach is to reinforce the missions in which we are already involved. I also believe that the best way to guarantee the security of the Israeli people has nothing to do with the unfortunate reaction in Gaza, with these indiscriminate bombings. The international community must propose the two-state solution and stop looking the other way. We have fooled ourselves into thinking that the situation was stabilized. Now, analysts estimate that Gaza’s GDP will not recover in two generations, apart from the enormous cost in loss of life. That is not tolerable and we have to put an end to it.
